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abt79
04-15-2016, 12:43 AM
Warning, this is a Legitimately Intelligent Discussion (LID). Flamewars, Bull:poop:, and Spamming/Derailing will not be tolerated.



I'm sick and tired of the same boring threads, so I figured an interesting, civil discussion would be welcome here. I've seen so many "what music do you like" threads, and from this I'm curious to see if there are any objective (that is, true for everyone/undeniably factual) standards for music.


Note that I'm not asking what your favorite type of music is, and not only do examples of "good" music not have to be songs you personally enjoy, but just because a song is objectively bad doesn't mean you aren't allowed to like it (hence, "guilty pleasures" or whatever)





So, what makes music good?

COLTONROCKO
04-15-2016, 12:45 AM
Warning, this is a Legitimately Intelligent Discussion (LID). Flamewars, Bull:poop:, and Spamming/Derailing will not be tolerated.



I'm sick and tired of the same boring threads, so I figured an interesting, civil discussion would be welcome here. I've seen so many "what music do you like" threads, and from this I'm curious to see if there are any objective (that is, true for everyone/undeniably factual) standards for music.


Note that I'm not asking what your favorite type of music is, and not only do examples of "good" music not have to be songs you personally enjoy, but just because a song is objectively bad doesn't mean you aren't allowed to like it (hence, "guilty pleasures" or whatever)





So, what makes music good?

The beat and the singer of course.

abt79
04-15-2016, 12:47 AM
The beat and the singer of course.

The beat? What about it?

COLTONROCKO
04-15-2016, 12:49 AM
The beat? What about it?

You can't like a song without the beat. The hook of the song attracts people to the song and catches it to their head so they will keep coming back to the same song or signer hoping that they will have another great song. A beat really describes you as a person, and it can sometimes relax your mind.

SpeedFreakz
04-15-2016, 12:57 AM
Cory in the house opening :^)

JOSHIE63
04-15-2016, 12:57 AM
My paradigm is composed of two parts: the ability to draw emotion or reciprocate thought upon the listener (my siggy song…no one can listen and watch the video and still not feel anything), and the way it sounds. Many songs contain only the first part and vice-versa, but the combination between the two really creates good music. One of my favorite songs does both almost perfectly, which is "Flight of the Navigator."

That being said, music is especially subjective, so this is stringently my overt opinion on such a huge topic.

iSkyDoesGTC
04-15-2016, 12:59 AM
Beat and repetition

Sorry I don't know

|ThyLuigi|
04-15-2016, 01:03 AM
It is rather complicated, because there's:
Speed
Melody
Pitch
Blend of sound
Order of the notes
Voice of the singer
Story the song is telling

and it goes on, but of course, not every song has these and it is subjective. But what popular songs have is a true simplicity — a repetitive beat and a voice that, while you might not listen to, it will sound good in the background. Great songs, like 'Duel of the Fates' for example, has a great mix of sound and changes quite a lot from beginning to end. In the beginning the notes are long, 4 measures of those long tones that you'll probably remember. Midway through the song the crash cymbals go along with the dramatization of the sound, quick it goes and most will love the song. You feel like you're listening to a true piece of art.

However, not all songs are this way. Some songs, such as 'Wings', send a message and tell a story. This story might not be clear on the first hearing, but reading the lyrics you can understand the message. The story can make you feel emotion for the writer of the song, being that the essence of him as a person is indivisable with what he owns (shoes).

Your popular songs are, often, about somekind of love. Whether it's about the feeling of love or if it's about a break-up, the tempo tends to be quick and the pitch in the background is high and the background is repetitive. They do sometimes tell a story, but not in much depth or meaning. The songs of this nature are there to relax to.

The question remains: What makes these songs good? The answer is that they take you away from your worries, your insecurities, away from the real world's troubles. This is true for all kinds of entertainment. We're all really just trying to escape the thoughts and ideas that manifest the real world.

abt79
04-15-2016, 01:09 AM
You can't like a song without the beat. The hook of the song attracts people to the song and catches it to their head so they will keep coming back to the same song or signer hoping that they will have another great song. A beat really describes you as a person, and it can sometimes relax your mind.

Yes, maybe the beat in general, however it's hard to pin down an objective standard of what makes a beat good because taste varies from person to person.

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It is rather complicated, because there's:
Speed
Melody
Pitch
Blend of sound
Order of the notes
Voice of the singer
Story the song is telling

and it goes on, but of course, not every song has these and it is subjective. But what popular songs have is a true simplicity — a repetitive beat and a voice that, while you might not listen to, it will sound good in the background. Great songs, like 'Duel of the Fates' for example, has a great mix of sound and changes quite a lot from beginning to end. In the beginning the notes are long, 4 measures of those long tones that you'll probably remember. Midway through the song the crash cymbals go along with the dramatization of the sound, quick it goes and most will love the song. You feel like you're listening to a true piece of art.

However, not all songs are this way. Some songs, such as 'Wings', send a message and tell a story. This story might not be clear on the first hearing, but reading the lyrics you can understand the message. The story can make you feel emotion for the writer of the song, being that the essence of him as a person is indivisable with what he owns (shoes).

Your popular songs are, often, about somekind of love. Whether it's about the feeling of love or if it's about a break-up, the tempo tends to be quick and the pitch in the background is high and the background is repetitive. They do sometimes tell a story, but not in much depth or meaning. The songs of this nature are there to relax to.

The question remains: What makes these songs good? The answer is that they take you away from your worries, your insecurities, away from the real world's troubles. This is true for all kinds of entertainment. We're all really just trying to escape the thoughts and ideas that manifest the real world.

Again, the problem with emotional output is that it heavily depends on the listener and is therefore pretty much subjective, although in this case maybe a song striking a chord (hah) with a large group of people could be some kind of sign that a song is objectively good.

What about originality?
Surely borrowing some aspects of an existing song isn't necessarily horrible but a truly groundbreaking song is difficult to make, and shows creativity.

Also, vocal talent/skill is certainly a thing, though I think this is what you were getting at when you referred to the "voice of the singer"





I can agree that Duel of the Fates (and an overwhelming majority of John Williams scores) are objectively good, I'm just not entirely sure why.

I believe there is some universally true standard of good music, it's just difficult to capture all the nuance of it while trying to ignore personal taste, while at the same time....embracing it because good music affects people?

SilversoulX
04-15-2016, 01:19 AM
How it sounds and the most important: The meaning.

I'm sick of how people who sing about money, drugs and sex still get awards and then the people who sing family-friendly songs never get discovered. I don't know why people enjoy songs that are about sex anyway. So, a song with the appropriate meaning makes it a good song. Yes, some inappropriate songs do sound good, but you can't really sing it in your house, especially when your parents are around. Seriously, I'd rather listen to death metal music with unclear lyrics than songs that are about money, drugs and sex. This is why most (not all) popular songs of this generation are bull:poop:.

abt79
04-15-2016, 01:25 AM
How it sounds and the most important: The meaning.

I'm sick of how people who sing about money, drugs and sex still get awards and then the people who sing family-friendly songs never get discovered. I don't know why people enjoy songs that are about sex anyway. So, a song with the appropriate meaning makes it a good song. Yes, some inappropriate songs do sound good, but you can't really sing it in your house, especially when your parents are around. Seriously, I'd rather listen to death metal music with unclear lyrics than songs that are about money, drugs and sex. This is why most (not all) popular songs of this generation are bull:poop:.

Every pop song ever has been about money, drugs or sex as long as there have been pop songs (ie since the 60s or maybe a bit earlier)

The Beatles were just more subtle about it

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The meaning and its beat.

As all people are varying degrees of unique, no one meaning resonates with everyone universally.
Also how do you tell which beats are good and which beats are bad?

|ThyLuigi|
04-15-2016, 01:31 AM
Yes, maybe the beat in general, however it's hard to pin down an objective standard of what makes a beat good because taste varies from person to person.

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Again, the problem with emotional output is that it heavily depends on the listener and is therefore pretty much subjective, although in this case maybe a song striking a chord (hah) with a large group of people could be some kind of sign that a song is objectively good.

What about originality?
Surely borrowing some aspects of an existing song isn't necessarily horrible but a truly groundbreaking song is difficult to make, and shows creativity.

Also, vocal talent/skill is certainly a thing, though I think this is what you were getting at when you referred to the "voice of the singer"





I can agree that Duel of the Fates (and an overwhelming majority of John Williams scores) are objectively good, I'm just not entirely sure why.

I believe there is some universally true standard of good music, it's just difficult to capture all the nuance of it while trying to ignore personal taste, while at the same time....embracing it because good music affects people?
Originality is something I forgot to touch on, but it really isn't as big as other things, especially when the purpose of the music is to listen to in the background. And yeah, 'Vocal Talent' would've been a better phrase than 'Voice of the singer'. Anyway, right now I'm playing John Williams: Movie Adventures in band right now, sadly I don't play much in the song.

I will say another thing, personal taste only goes so far as a majority of people in the same society are destined to have similar music tastes, and can enjoy the same things together. That's why people become popular instead of songs from a million different people popping up all the time. Atleast, that's what I believe.

AntoDecay
04-15-2016, 01:49 AM
The way it makes you feel.

abt79
04-15-2016, 01:52 AM
Originality is something I forgot to touch on, but it really isn't as big as other things, especially when the purpose of the music is to listen to in the background. And yeah, 'Vocal Talent' would've been a better phrase than 'Voice of the singer'. Anyway, right now I'm playing John Williams: Movie Adventures in band right now, sadly I don't play much in the song.

I will say another thing, personal taste only goes so far as a majority of people in the same society are destined to have similar music tastes, and can enjoy the same things together. That's why people become popular instead of songs from a million different people popping up all the time. Atleast, that's what I believe.

Obviously the weight of vocal talent varies, in instrumental songs like movie scores it's completely null because, well, they're instrumental. Some of my favorite songs are instrumental though, they can still convey emotion.


I see what you're saying with the whole "societies having similar movie tastes" thing too. Not that everyone has the same tastes per se, but society does influence what you enjoy, and having pop songs blasted at you often enough makes at least a few of them grow on you.

Of course, then you have the hipsters, conforming to nonconformity.

JOSHIE63
04-15-2016, 01:56 AM
How it sounds and the most important: The meaning.

I'm sick of how people who sing about money, drugs and sex still get awards and then the people who sing family-friendly songs never get discovered. I don't know why people enjoy songs that are about sex anyway. So, a song with the appropriate meaning makes it a good song. Yes, some inappropriate songs do sound good, but you can't really sing it in your house, especially when your parents are around. Seriously, I'd rather listen to death metal music with unclear lyrics than songs that are about money, drugs and sex. This is why most (not all) popular songs of this generation are bull:poop:.

In any case, drug glorification and grandiosity are everywhere in today's propaganda. Think of a movie without a sexual innuendo? A news story not about drugs or violence?

Even still, I do not agree. The genre of R&B — one known for songs pertaining to sex — has many songs that do not glorify sex, but weigh the emotional baggage of casual sex and so on. These are certainly about a taboo subject to the public (who again, glorify it anyway), but see it in a different way.

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Of course, then you have the hipsters, conforming to nonconformity.

As ironic as that is, check the dictionary definition of hipster.